Wretch 32 & Avelino: An MM Exclusive

When looking at UK rap duos, Wretch 32 and Avelino come right at the very top. From what many consider to be the greatest Fire in the Booth of all time, to a Young Fire Old Flame project that transcended their genre, these two put lyricism, storytelling, and punchlines at the forefront of their music and achieved the highest level in doing so.

Mixtape Madness sat down with them both to discuss their origin story, the legacy of their debut project, their new deluxe release, and the competitive aspect of their musical process:

Can you take me back to the start – how did Young Fire Old Flame come about?

Avelino: At the time of Young Fire Old Flame, 32 is already very established, very well known, very seasoned, very successful, wise. From moving through the gears to topping the charts in the country, when topping the charts in the country was a huge thing. We’re also from the same local area –  I could probably throw a stone from my mum’s gaff’s garden, and it would reach his mum’s gaff. But then, obviously, from two very different generations, music bridged the gap, connected the dots, and I’ll explain in what way:

At the time I was releasing music sort of really underground, but online at the same time – pun intended. I was just trying to get my name to be heard and do what people I looked up to were doing. I looked to 32 to get my name out there. The nature of the guy, he came across my talent and what I was doing and created an opportunity for myself to come to the studio with him. Eventually my attitude and approach led to another session, then another session, then making a classic project which I’m eternally grateful for.

Wretch, what did you see in Avelino that stuck out to you at that time?

Wretch 32: I think at first it was just a very unique tone and how he was playing with words. I just thought to myself that this yute was cold and he sounded like he was mixed through a different filter – I remember saying that to him. His delivery was so distinctive. Obviously I invited him to the studio and saw what he could do when he got cooking, then we kept cooking and cooking and now here we are.

You mentioned your proximity to each other in North London. So many of the UK’s best rappers have come from that area. Do you have any ideas why?

W: Something in the water, or the lack of the water (laughs). I think in my generation, it was the fact that East London, in terms of the grime space, had the radio stations in a chokehold. So the main line stations were RinseFM, Deja etc. When you’re on the outside looking in, you have to be better in order to get in. 

That’s why you had a lot of clashes to just try and get through into that main space. We didn’t really get on the DVD’s and all of that stuff until a bit later. That’s when you saw Skepta and Jme partnering up with Roll Deep, which kind of shone a light on them. I think being an outsider sometimes forces you to hone your talent.

If we’re talking about Young Fire Old Flame we have to talk about your Fire in the Booth. When you stepped into the studio that day did you envisage the impact it would have?

A: Personally, not at all. I just saw it as another opportunity to rap and to showcase what I can do. I think that’s the best way to be, really. I saw the opportunity presented to me and I took it with both arms, did a good performance, and the rest is history, quite literally. 

W: I think from my perspective, I just knew that both verses were mad. I’d rapped my verse to Av, and I rapped my verse to my manager and a couple of other people and I got told that it was called. No one said it was mad, though. I guess that’s what happens when you set a standard – whenever I send music to people all I get is ‘that’s sick G’, so it’s difficult to really gauge what the reaction is going to be. 

I thought it was a mad Wretch verse and definitely the superior one, but there could have been a short time where I went with a different one. I knew though that this ting was mad. I don’t know how mad, but I knew it was mad. Two mad verses, the competitiveness, Charlie getting gassed and wheeling it up. If all of these things didn’t happen in the perfect order we might not have had that moment.

A: I feel like the beat I picked too sets the stage quite well – like an intro to a movie. That moment transcended rap and got attention outside of our world.

W: For big moments, so many different stars have to align. I’ve said this so many times before, even when I was having a chart run. It’s never by accident. We would be on tour for two, three months, opening up for an artist and performing the song that’s about to come out. By the time this song is even on the radio, we’ve performed it to over 50 000 people. When all these things align and you get to the sweet spot, it shows you planted your seeds at the right time and you get fruit. 

We’re now ten years on from your joint project. Have you both had a moment to take stock of how it changed the landscape of UK rap?

W: Yes and no. I think yes because I know the impact it had on myself, and then no in a sense of we’re so focussed on what we’re going to do tomorrow that you kind of run past yesterday. Looking back now with hindsight and the reason why we revisited it was because that it was actually a mad moment, but at the time we were just thinking about what we could do after. Av was going into his own run with his music and the same for myself. We were so focussed on what tomorrow was bringing that we never had the chance to look back until recently.

A: I think it also gives a chance to revisit that special enthusiasm that we had making the music on that project. That feeling of excitement and enthusiasm is always there with Young Fire Old Flame and that’s a wonderful place to be in. All the cultural significance and impact is interesting to look back on, but what’s more interesting to me is the feeling of gratitude where have something that we’re truly enthusiastic about, which is to rap at a high level and keep our word art.

At that time ten years ago we were in the middle of a grime resurgence as well as seeing acts like Section Boyz and 67 come through as well. What stood out for the both of you was this kind of pure lyricism. Do you think that is what resonated with people?

W: I think it’s never bad to display great raps. I don’t think you ever lose. Hence why Funk Flex has been going on forever, Charlie Sloth, Kenny Allstar. It’s still a thing and always will be. Who can press play on an instrumental and impress people? You can’t take that part of it for granted. You just have to look at when we drop a freestyle, there are so many reaction videos and breakdowns of it. People still love that element of rap. I don’t think you ever lose.

You’ve just dropped the Young Fire Old Flame Deluxe version. How long have you guys been working on it and what’s the process been like?

A: Not the longest. I guess a few months but we haven’t been doing back to back to back sessions. We were both aware that ten years was coming round and 32 gave me the shout saying that it’s the anniversary and we need to do a deluxe. It wasn’t really a question or a proposal, it just is what it is. The process was very intentional and we’ve arrived at our destination. 

Has anything changed in either of your approaches over the last decade?

W: Similar, you know – and I think that’s what makes it fun. We know roughly what we want to say and what we represent. I think the best word to describe the studio process is organic. We don’t try to get too overly scientific. It’s just vibes and words.

I know from conversations with other rappers that there is a competitive aspect when it comes to getting in the studio with Wretch 32. Does that shine through when you are making music together?

W: 100%. Not in a way that I would say something or sneak diss, there is just an understanding that for the song to be good, we both have to be at our best. Both people have to care, because I don’t want to get finished and he doesn’t want to get finished, so we can naturally meet each other in that mindset. Because of the organic process, Av might have a sixteen and rap it to me and then I will know where the bar is. I’ll then rap my 16 and raise that bar for him and then he’ll reach a new height. The song only benefits from that and that’s the vibes.

One of the overarching themes on the deluxe is family. How conscious are both of you of that?

A: I guess naturally we’re using rap to express what’s going on in our lives. That’s just an indication that family is a big part of what makes us and it means a lot to me. I mention my sister on the project and my niece and I’m really close to both of them. Music is our platform to share and articulate and family plays a huge part in our day to day. 

W: I think also when you go back to the original Young Fire Old Flame, we’ve always worn our hearts on our sleeves.

A: I think it’s so interesting as a listener to hear on ‘GMO’ you talking about your baby daughter and then on your new project talking about how she’s soon 15.

W: 100%. If you’re zoned in you know you’re really with us on a life journey. It just kind of encapsulates how fast or slow we feel that time has gone. 

I want to talk about a couple of features on the deluxe. Firstly, Tiny Boost and Youngs Teflon on ‘Black Orchid’. I know Wretch has worked with them previously on ‘Detergent’, but what do they bring to that track?

W: 2 on 2 battle (Laughs). I think obviously there’s Krept and Konan, Trap and Blade, Trap and Headie. Tef and Boost are another duo who punch heavy. It’s nice not necessarily to go up against but to link up with two rappers who do the pair thing really well.

You also have Proph on ‘Baguettes’. I know you guys were very complimentary about him at your show recently, but how far do you think he can go?

A: He has no ceiling – he’s driving a convertible. With his talent, his attitude, and his care for his craft, I think with those three things, I don’t see a ceiling. The sky is the limit and as long as he maintains those three things he can become as good as he wants, if I’m honest.

In your respective careers, Wretch is now Creative Director of 0207 Def Jam and Av has started his own sports agency company. Do you feel like the chasing of progression in your careers has caused you both to elevate and expand?

A: We don’t chase anything. We just create and attract good things and I think it’s natural progression. I don’t want to speak too much for 32 but having that perspective at Def Jam of someone who has made a career out of painting pictures with words can be an infrastructure for new upcoming artists. It’s a huge asset for them.

On a personal level, football and music has always been my identity. It was only a matter of time before I returned to the beautiful game to play my part. Hopefully that’s to make a much bigger impact than I could ever have if I became a player in another life. Excuse me for correcting you, but we don’t chase anything at all.

W: We’re just walking the path we’re supposed to be on.

Finally, as we celebrate the ten year anniversary of Young Fire Old Flame, where do you see yourselves in the next ten?

W: I don’t know if we’ll do another one in 2035 (Laughs). I think it would be nice to do a bit more stage work early next year, and for me personally it would be nice to get back to recording some of my bits as well and just seeing where the year takes us. I’ve got some ideas and some plans I want to try and execute. 

A: Similarly it would be nice to do some stage work next year and see where we can spread the flame. Generally speaking, just constant elevation. I guess one of the things that we love the most is that we’re always looking for perfection. We may never get there, but that’s the thing that drives us forwards■